# Old And Busted < New Hotness...

- Site: Analog Industries
- Author: Chris Randall
- Date: 2011-03-07
- URL: https://analogindustries.com/2011/03/old-and-busted-new-hotness/

![Old And Busted < New Hotness...](https://analogindustries.com/images/blog/max_ss.jpg)

I'm sad to say that I'm pitching Pd. While it is _reasonably_ stable on my PC, on the MacBookPro where I do most of this sort of work, it is something of a travesty. I've put up with its little annoyances (having to set the MIDI and audio I/O every single time I open it, or its incredibly hard-on-the-eyes UI, e.g.) for years, but I just can't take the crashing any more. By virtue of being a software developer, I'm fairly patient with software problems, but there's no rhyme nor reason to Pd's instability, and something as simple as instancing a new object (say, a simple metro or something) can randomly cause it to just disappear.

I have no idea how much work I've lost over the years with Pd's OS X behavior, but I imagine it is quite a bit. I have successfully built fairly complex patchers (Axon was designed entirely in Pd, for instance) and indeed entire songs using Pd, but the benefits no longer outweigh the detriments, unfortunately.

So, the other day I downloaded the trial of Max 5, to see how things had shaped up. To give an idea of how long it has been since I used this program, I was employed at C'74 on the QA team for the initial Windows port of Max, which if you recall occurred at the cusp of the 3->4 transition. So, almost 8 years since the last time I opened this program. I imagine this will come as no surprise to the Max users among the readership, but come to find out there is a world of difference between Pd (and indeed Max 3/4) and Max 5.

I was able to bang out a fairly complex song in a matter of hours, it didn't crash once, and lo, and furthermore hark, I forgot all about vst~. The baby Jesus wept.

Anyhow, an adjustment to my workflow over the weekend (luckily not a drastic one, as Max and Pd are quite similar in operation), and Max 5 is now the hub of my generative lifestyle, pitching both MIDI and audio hither and yon. The patcher I've got going on pictured above is mostly procedural drums and synth stuff, with a couple AD plug-ins for effects, and a couple outboard synths and effects, with full MIDI CC control, and not a single crash. The mere thought of trying to do something so hybridized in Pd gives me little tiny hives all over my face.

So, sorry, Pd. I tried. I really did. But you've gotta go.

## Comments (25)

**chaircrusher** (2011-03-07):

As much as I like the idea of Open Source Software, PD is a great example of what is wrong with a lot of it.

Basically, if you aren't willing to pay experienced engineers $75k a year to make products out of your proof-of-concept hack, it's worse than useless.

And with very few exceptions, open source audio software is 99% proof-of-concept hacks that no one could be arsed to finish.

I'm not a Max user because it's a little too much like programming for me, & I do that all day at work. But I've tremendous respect for the Cycling74 crew, who've more than once done me a solid.

**pierlu** (2011-03-07):

this post frightens me

I'm using PD on OSX BUT on a G4 powerbook, which has served me very well (going for the ninth year of service) but it's time to upgrade.

PPC build of PD is stable, for what I need. I developed patches without ever experincing crashes nor lockups.

So now I'm asking myself: will I have the same stability on the Macintel?!

But I don't use vts~, so that's maybe where the troubles come from.

Can I post a link to this thread on the PD mailing list? Or do you reckon this will bring over too much hatred for the betrayer?

**Chris Randall** (2011-03-07):

I can take the hatred. I've never used vst~ in Pd, because it doesn't work on MacIntels, or at least it hadn't last time I tried, which was a year or more ago.

To be fair, Pd on the PC is fairly stable. I've never bothered with Linux, because by the time I actually get the thing to make fucking sound, I've completely lost interest in why it was I decided to do something like that in the first place. It's interesting to find out PPC Pd is stable, as well. I'll file that info away for later.

-CR

**pierlu** (2011-03-07):

Well, probably I'm not doing much audio work as you. My DSP skills are pretty lame and I mostly do controllerism kind of stuff.

Will point this thread to the pd community, we'll see how it turns out. thanks, p.

**peterkirn** (2011-03-07):

The Pd list I see is already discussing this. The problem is, there's not much to discuss when you don't give specifics of what you're doing. I've been using Pd on Mac and Linux daily and haven't seen any of what you're describing here, least of all when instantiating metro.

Which version are you using? Is this vanilla? Extended? Are you building yourself? What objects?

Yeah, of course, if things are crashing, that's frustrating. But I don't see it getting addressed without specifics.

@chaircrusher: You know, specific criticisms can be addressed, like "hey, I don't like that ..." -- adding as much detail as possible. I think levying that kind of criticism on an entire community is counter-productive.

**seancostello** (2011-03-07):

Screenshot of the pd-list discussion:

http://www.valhalladsp.com/images/PDMailingListReaction.jpg

**peterkirn** (2011-03-07):

Actually, Sean, I was just reading the Pd list discussion. And actually, they said nothing of the sort - several said, specifically, hey, this is something we'd like to fix, but we don't have any specifics to go on.

Now, you may see me get frustrated with this, but I don't represent the Pd community. And I'm frustrated because I've had to deal with people making these kind of generalizations about Apple Logic, Ableton Live, Max for Live, Max/MSP, Pro Tools... the list goes on. Now, sometimes, very often, indeed, they're *dead on the money*. But crashes aren't mysterious events. They're caused by specific sets of circumstances. Without those specifics, this information is useless.

And I don't think you can draw generalizations about, say, * all of open source software * (or all of proprietary software, or all software made in Germany, or all software beginning with letters between L and M) based on that kind of specific case.

**bitsynthesis** (2011-03-07):

I've been using Pd on a MacBook for a few years now, though primarily for visuals, and haven't run into excessive crashing. Now and then, yes, but generally because I've created an endless loop or otherwise mis-stepped. I've never experienced objects disappearing when other objects are instantiated.

Sorry you've had such a bad experience.

Oh, and you no longer have to set audio/midi every time you open pd, at least with the latest version of pd-extended.

**peterkirn** (2011-03-07):

No, and don't get me wrong - when something crashes, it totally sucks. I'm personally obsessed with finding the source of problems, wherever they are, and especially here. Max is great, and there are lots of reasons to choose it, but I'd hate for instability to be the reason - I'd rather have both be stable.

I'm suspicious only because the particular symptoms Chris is describing don't make sense to me, so I'm curious to know more about them.

**seancostello** (2011-03-07):

@peterkirn: Actually, I was just reviewing the pd-list archives (I'm not a subscriber), and I'm pretty sure that the majority of the responders are, in fact, pod people.

**seancostello** (2011-03-07):

I've read the pd-list archives, and there are several responses along the lines of "well, he's a developer, why doesn't he fix the bugs?"

Speaking for myself, as a plugin developer, I spend the majority of my waking hours with a compiler window up and running. At the end of my day, assuming I have any free time (and I almost never do, as kids tend to make unreasonable demands such as "we're hungry"), the last thing I want to do is go into the source code of some busted tool and fix it. And if I'm making music, it is a different mode than my programming mode.

No disrespect intended towards Miller Puckette or Pd. I think it is a great tool, and I love the things that have been created from it. But this expectation that people have time to sit down and fix a tool that is broken for them, instead of using a tool that isn't broken, presumes that people have far more energy towards non-survival pursuits than what seems common today.

One last point: For many people, the tool is just that, a tool. It isn't a cause. So there isn't more or less loyalty involved with the tool than "it breaks" or "it works."

**peterkirn** (2011-03-07):

Sean, maybe you're reading a different post than I am? I don't read it that way. Those folks are people who are maintainers and committers to Pd and/or people who use the thing daily.

Here's my feeling: people rarely report a crash or a problem because it's in their head. There's usually a cause.

So when Chris says he's having trouble, especially because it's Chris, I believe him. I just don't know what the cause is because I can't reproduce it; I find Pd to be very stable, using both the current vanilla and extended builds on both Mac and Linux for extended periods of time.

That comes, of course, as no comfort to anyone experiencing crashes.

If the response of people maintaining Pd is that they can't response to vague complaints without specifics, and that they'd rather read a bug report than a blog post, I think that's entirely within their rights.

This has nothing to do with open source or proprietary software; this same discussion goes on with every piece of music software I've ever seen (usually in the forums for those tools).

But yes, the only way to bridge the gap between the user and the developer is to have more details about the specific circumstance.

I know a number of the regular posters on Pd-list. They're not pod people.

**peterkirn** (2011-03-07):

Oh, I see -- well, look, this is a list of people volunteering fixes. Here's my feeling on all open source projects - since, I'll concede, no proprietary software project ever asks you to actually *fix* the problem:

Asking someone to fix a problem they find is probably unrealistic.

Asking someone to fill out a detailed bug report when they find a problem is entirely reasonable.

And honestly, try going over to the Cycling '74 forum and saying, "augh, I hate Max. It crashes too much. I'm switching to Pd." (You won't be the first.)

Their response will very likely be, uh, okay, can you tell us specifics?

**seancostello** (2011-03-07):

@peterkirn: I think the issue is that Chris wasn't asking for the bug to be fixed. He just said that he is tired of using Pd for various reasons, and is switching to Max/MSP.

"If the response of people maintaining Pd is that they can't response to vague complaints without specifics, and that they'd rather read a bug report than a blog post, I think that's entirely within their rights."

Don't forget that Chris didn't write this on the Pd list. He wrote it on his blog. Which is also entirely within his rights. I don't think that Chris wants to bridge the gap between the user and the developer, so much as get a few more EPs recorded.

**inar-** (2011-03-07):

I did try max once, quite a long time ago now. I emailed them to ask about the DRM used and got a terse email back saying little more than 'why don't you go use pure data.' wow. I ask the same question of most software I buy and have never had a response like that, people are normally glad to answer.

I'd love to use max but, well... i'm a very principled person and that response lost them a customer forever. shame, especially with the ableton integration now.

**beauty pill** (2011-03-07):

You guys know North Korea is a ticking time bomb, right?

Just call me Mr. Perspective.

- c

**inar-** (2011-03-07):

having said all that I am *really* tempted to pick it back up again. heck, maybe I will...

**Chris Randall** (2011-03-07):

I should mention, at this juncture, that my feelings are basically as Sean said. I have to code all day. When I sit down to make music, I'm doing it because it relaxes me. I don't want to have to fight the environment.

And also, as I mentioned to Peter in private (not knowing this conversation was going on here) I push Pd _very_ hard. I am in no way trying to be precious, but I have a fairly advanced understanding of how sounds are made and sequenced, and I've often used Pd to prototype concepts that later get used in Audio Damage products. I also have a far better understanding of how the computer audio environment works than most, by the nature of my job and career.

So, keeping those things in mind, I'm not going to play tech support for a FOSS product. I'll note the irony, given that it is people like me that provide the most robust testing environment. However, it's also people like me that have a fuck of a lot to do every day. I'm not in an academic environment where I can sit and poke at this for hours for the shear curiosity of it. I also don't have a trust fund that can support my idle interests. I live paycheck to paycheck, and the landlord isn't terribly interested in me spending time on things that don't show a return.

So, long story short, I push Pd hard, and am easily able to make it crash. I can push Max harder. Max and Pd are equally "free" to me, as my relationship with C'74 precludes a financial transaction to procure Max. So, in that light, I choose the tool that is the least amount of trouble and enables me to accomplish whatever it is I set out to do with the minimum amount of time and headaches invested.

Simple math, when you get down to it.

-CR

**billingslea** (2011-03-08):

Wow... I have nothing useful to add here. This conversation is way over my head... but the passion! I can appreciate the passion! Keep making the music folks!

**Chris Randall** (2011-03-08):

@billingslea: We're arguing the merits of two nearly identical programs. One is open source, and the other is commercial. The funny thing is that the two programs are a shining example of the difference mentalities behind FOSS development and commercial development. One is a mess in general, but it is free. The other is a mess in more specific ways, is much better looking, and is expensive. They do exactly the same thing.

Such is the way of things in the deep end of the music tech pool. As I think @beautypill would point out at a time like this if he was still reading this thread, seriously, buy a guitar and learn three chords. If you have something to say, it'll come out.

-CR

**kid vs chemical** (2011-03-08):

Chris mentioned reaktor. Despite being way more specialized than max or pd, It's my personal favorite patching enviroment because it sounds so good, having NI's wonderful synth/fx engines built in. I'm just not smart and or learned enough to make such things with msp. Also, my brother is incredible with reaktor, he's one of the forum moderators and an alpha tester. Which proves that picking a favorite tool often has to do with how you where introduced to it.

To clarify, my question about choosing max over pd was made assuming you were doing the kind of things Chris was talking about, I should have made that more clear. Regardless, it was just a newbie asking a question to some vets.

Despite everything else I probably use pd more than max anyway because of the many things pd users have openly shared. Since I can't make great things from scratch yet, I rely on seeing the work of others. That's another reason I love reaktor, the incredible user library.

**studio nebula** (2011-03-08):

I've been trying to think of another field in which someone else's stated choice of tools can provoke such a reaction, and I'm coming up blank.

--Adam

**strata189** (2011-03-09):

@studio nebula

Go to a forum for boutique guitar amps or pedals. This discussion has been very civilized.

Actually, forget the amps, just ask about tubes... or cables!

**DGillespie** (2011-03-09):

@Adam, I've often wondered if somewhere there are forums full of mechanics arguing about different wrench brands.

That being said, if you go to racing forums there's a lot of s**t talking about different cars.

**Chris Randall** (2011-03-09):

Yeah, that's a good point. We were at a car show a few months back, and my brother-in-law is a _serious_ GM guy. We were walking around and stopped in front of an absolutely beautiful '70 Challenger R/T (which, for the non-car folks, is not made by GM.) Guy must have had $75K invested in this car. It was, hands down, the nicest resto-rod I'd ever seen, just face-melting gorgeous.

My brother-in-law goes "well, that's not showroom stock."

That's the best you'll get from a car guy.

-CR