# Audio Damage Update...

- Site: Analog Industries
- Author: Chris Randall
- Date: 2011-07-11
- URL: https://analogindustries.com/2011/07/audio-damage-update/

Well, with a couple hiccups, our new framework for porting older products (e.g. those without the newer "flat" UIs, everything released after Tattoo) that we first tried with Dubstation seems to be standing the acid test. We're going to give it a couple more weeks, but at this juncture I'm willing to say that we are now able to port the entire existing product line to 64-bit, so it's just a matter of doing that.

Now, this transition is going to be a bit problematic for AudioUnits users, but hey, you bought in to a format made by a company that changes its mind a lot, and you gotta roll with the punches.

The main thing to note: all the upcoming new versions will be stereo-only as far as AUs are concerned. We're done paying homage to Logic's ridiculous stereo-fying habits, which play fast and loose with the entire concept of turning mono channels in to stereo ones. The process should either be entirely transparent (like in Live) or not subject to change (like in Cubase and any hardware studio). So if you want to use a stereo effect on a mono channel, you need to do it as a send, like a real producer.

Anyhow, since we have bills to pay, and updating existing products to 64-bit means almost nothing in the way of income, we're going to release another new product before we do the rest of the line. This next product will be built as a VST3, and use Steinberg's provided methods for making a VST2.4 and AudioUnit. It will, as a result, have sidechaining and all the other features available to VST3 users. We're essentially learning a new format here, so our testing process will be a little more strenuous than normal, but we're pretty sanguine about the concept at this juncture, and expect this to be fairly painless, as we've already overcome all the hard parts. (Theoretically.)

Anyhow, that's where we're at. I have a Google+ account now, and my profile can be found at [gplus.to/Crandall](http://gplus.to/Crandall). If you're rollin' with the Big G, you can find me up in there. Since I don't have the Book Of Faces, I'm not exactly sure what I'll be using the G+ account for, but it's there, and will no doubt contain pithy prose of the sort you already know and love. G+ doesn't seem to have the obvious commercial angle that FaceBook and MySpace had, so making band and company pages to "like" seems fairly pointless, at least at this juncture. I'm sure they'll fuck it up down the road, though.

## Comments (25)

**boobs** (2011-07-11):

didn't realize mono/stereo AU's were a PITA. bummer. some plugs are better suited as inserts than sends.. though every situation is different. but i guess AUs are in general a PITA anyway so the math makes sense.

i'm jet lagged.

**analogcre8or** (2011-07-11):

I'm with Boobs and, unfortunately, AU.

**inteliko** (2011-07-11):

Apple isnt a PITA, they are a pain your pocket.

I like Boobs.

**poxyloxy** (2011-07-12):

Book of Faces. *chuckles*

**gw** (2011-07-12):

well. that is a bit mmmm:

"The main thing to note: all the upcoming new versions will be stereo-only as far as AUs are concerned."

this will interrupt the working process i am aware of all logic-users-i-know. exactly that is part of the fun working with logic. shuffling around plugs via alt+drag in channel mixer or mixer regardless whether they are mono or stereo. that exactly is the experimental part with plugs.

then as well ... having bought plugs with more opportunities than they are going to have from a certain point in the future on doesn`t feel right. it`s like buying a car with four wheels, that needs an electronic update every year to run and with the 2011-update you can only use two of the wheels anymore. well. i hope, i am not to harsh.

and yeah - i don`t want to be a real producer. otherwise i probably would. i want software-all-in-one-solutions to behave different from the real world - as well as i don`t need virtual cars in game consoles to behave like real ones. i want the fun part of having virtual ones ...

**Chris Randall** (2011-07-12):

Well, it's either that or no 64-bit versions. You choose. There is only so much we can do when Apple keeps switching things up. We can't re-write 20-odd plug-ins every time they change their mind, which historically is about every 18 months. We've come up with a method by which we can (hopefully) future-proof our product line with respect to AudioUnits, but TANSTAAFL, and we had to give up something. In this case, it was multiple I/O formats. This was an easy decision because the entire act is fraught with stupidity in Logic.

Look on the bright side: you'll lose a bit of convenience, but in the process, you'll actually learn a bit about how to correctly address mono/stereo signal flow.

Note that this won't affect new products. Any AU coming out post-Panstation will have multiple channel modes where appropriate.

-CR

**boobs** (2011-07-12):

weird. i get why you guys have to make a choice.. draw the line somewhere but i don't get the "correctly address mono/stereo signal flow" comments.

if i have a mono kick/snare/bass line etc why would i use a stereo compressor or EQ as an insert? that's pretty simple.

i'm pretty traditional with my routing when mixing and treat the mixer in logic like a hardware mixer when it comes to inserts and sends. reverbs/delays etc go on a bus and i use sends to get audio to them.. but w/the multitude of FX out there these days that don't really fit any kind of traditional dogma sometimes it just makes sense to use the weird reaktor ensemble or filtered pitch shifting delay thing as an insert..

so, while this won't really effect me anyways (not using anything 64 bit so don't care.. yet) it may be a bummer somewhere down the line but who knows.. maybe by then (18/36) months things will have u-turned, logic will have turned into a FCPX type prosumer cluster fuck and i'll have switched to the mac version of cakewalk.

but.. most of your effect plugs are really better suited to stereo use anyways so there's that.

ps - still jet lagged for some reason.

**analogcre8or** (2011-07-12):

I have heard that stereo is better than mono anyways, so I'm not that concerned ... I just want my 64bit KombinatAU already, thanks very much, and with everything working again oh, and... I'm still with boobs?

**xmodz** (2011-07-13):

@boobs

I believe Crandall said AUs will have multiple channel modes ONLY when appropriate.

Meaning they will be stereo only unless the AU in question is best suited as an insert. In that case, it will be able to function as a mono plug as well.

**boobs** (2011-07-13):

@xmodz - where does he say that? (i'm still jet lagged and not doing myself any favors right now.. beer please)

quoted from CR's posts:

"The main thing to note: all the upcoming new versions will be stereo-only as far as AUs are concerned.... ...So if you want to use a stereo effect on a mono channel, you need to do it as a send, like a real producer. "

and

"Note that this won't affect new products. Any AU coming out post-Panstation will have multiple channel modes where appropriate."

also, this doesn't effect me and i imagine it won't for some time so the horse i have in this race is still eating some hay and chilling in his stall getting his neck brushed by some woman in tight pants and boots.

**xmodz** (2011-07-13):

@boobs

I could be entirely off base here but this was my analysis of what Crandall said. I'm fully prepared for a bitch slap if I'm wrong.

Chris: "The main thing to note: all the upcoming new versions will be stereo-only as far as AUs are concerned"

All of the upcoming 64 bit versions of the old AU plugs will be stereo only so don't update to the 64 bit version AUs if you don't like that. If you absolutely NEED to use the older plugs as 64 bit then tough cookies because they will be stereo only.

Chris: "Note that this won't affect new products. Any AU coming out post-Panstation will have multiple channel modes where appropriate."

All of the new products served up as AUs will have multiple channel modes where appropriate so they won't necessarily be restricted by this stereo only stuff.

**Chris Randall** (2011-07-13):

xmodz analysis of my meandering prose is correct. The "stereo only" thing refers specifically to Symbiosis-wrapped plug-ins, which is everything that is currently 64-bit AU, plus all the old products as we update them.

Going forward, we're building VST3s, and the VST3 kit has built-in wrappers for AU and VST2.4, and theoretically provides multiple channel configurations. (Although we haven't tried this feature, it is supposed to work.)

Now, all that said, Adam just iChatted to me that he may have come up with an alteration to the Symbiosis wrapper that will allow multiple channel configs. If this is indeed the case, then everything I said is wrong, and we'll have to release yet another round of updates, but all the usual modes will be supported. I don't know if this is actually the case yet, though.

Ironically, we wouldn't have this problem if we had just wrapped all along. Instead, up until Discord3 we made "real" AudioUnits, unlike almost every other commercial plug-in dev. That is to say that we never used any sort of wrapper, but rather actually re-made the plug-in as an AU after we had finished the VST. As a result, all our plug-ins prior to Discord3 heavily relied on Carbon, since that's how you made AUs. The reason it has taken so long to actually get the 64-bit train going is that in order to Cocoa-fy the user interfaces so they could be 64-bit would require essentially re-making them again, and doing this for our entire product line was making us sad.

But, as you can tell from the group of products that are already 64-bit, we gave that nonsense up. And with Dubstation, we figured out how to Symbiosis-wrap the older products.

-CR

**boobs** (2011-07-13):

@xmodz - yes. that's exactly as i understood it.

**Chris Randall** (2011-07-13):

Adam has successfully made a Symbiosis AU that shows as mono->mono and stereo->stereo. Unfortunately it crashes, so "successfully" is a matter of degrees. But headway is being made.

-CR

**bleen** (2011-07-13):

That's great news for something like Dubstation - I love to have L-C-R mono delay Auxes when mixing and DS is the PERFECT delay for that. I welcome any headway in the true mono quest.

**synthetic** (2011-07-13):

However something like Panstation, e.g., works better as an insert. And so far my process has been thus:

1. This sound is mono and boring

2. Try Panstation!

3. Crap, it's a mono track. Do I make a new stereo track, or make a send and go there 100% wet, or oh screw it Brady Bunch is on.

**xmodz** (2011-07-13):

I'm with boobs.

**xmodz** (2011-07-13):

I've been waiting for a real chance to use that button. But I guess you could say that boobs is with me as well. Same thing though.

Back on topic...

I'm glad Adam is making some progress. I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it must be to have to redo all of this shit every time a format throws a curve ball. At least it keeps you guys on your feet!

**synthetic** (2011-07-14):

Glad to hear that this year's AU is almost working.

**valis** (2011-07-14):

Apple does a great job at keeping developers close to their stable, Tech Darwinism at its finest. Of course I use my fair share of their products even still...

As for the mono/stereo issue, as long as the bit-bridge is around I think you can get away with keeping 'old' products however you want them. Just promise that v2 updates will bring things inline, at least this is what other companies would do. So kudos to Adam (& Chris) for actually caring about existing customers and doing their best...!

**Chris Randall** (2011-07-14):

Heh. "...as long as the bit-bridge is around..."

And that's the rub, right there. One thing we've learned is that actually relying on Apple for anything involving AudioUnits is a bad idea of the first magnitude. If the bit bridge worked flawlessly, then I'd say "you know what? You guys are whiners. The shit works. Shut up."

But the bit bridge does _not_ work flawlessly, and its existence relies on the existence of a 32-bit Logic. It is entirely possible that, at one of these many Press Events that Apple gives, Steve could just go "hey, and one more thing: XCode will no longer build 32-bit code, and all Apple products that could utilize 32-bit code this morning will not be able to the next time you run Software Update."

Tell me that sounds far-fetched, and I'll tell you that you obviously haven't owned any Apple products for more than a month or two.

So, long story short, we have learned to ride the wave best we can. Because our business model requires a large product base, we have to occasionally make tough decisions. You get a lot of product for a small cash outlay with us, but as a result, we don't have the money lying around to hire someone who's sole purpose is to make sure old products work with new OSes. As a result, things move in bursts in AD land.

-CR

**analogcre8or** (2011-07-14):

All these worrying Apple scenarios, surely well founded CR, are keeping me up at night. I have a major investment in (still only) 32 bit AUs, yet run Logic - which I could never see myself switching away from - exclusively in 64. I guess I'm gonna be screwed sooner rather than later along with everybody in the same situation. However, isn't there also a chance that Apple and the remainder of the old Emagic gang will do the opposite of letting everybody down? I certainly hope so...

**Chris Randall** (2011-07-14):

I will say this much: you never know with them. I had a healthy investment in one company's software and hardware, and was an endorsee, and thus received privileged information. One day in July of 2002 (the 2nd, to be precise) I woke up, smoked a cigarette and quaffed a Pepsi, turned on my computer, and found out that not only was my endorsement gone, but the company I had invested so much time, money, and support with had ceased to make the product I used, literally overnight, with no warning whatsoever.

That company was emagic.

And when I bitched and moaned about it, you know what the response I heard most was? "Well, it's not like the software stopped working or anything." The second most common response was "buy a Mac."

People can be unhelpful in these situations. My advice is to take everything Apple promises with a grain of salt, and assume that they'll do the most annoying thing possible at every opportunity. As long as you keep this up, you'll be pleasantly surprised more often than not, instead of repeatedly disappointed.

-CR

**valis** (2011-07-15):

Not only that but I tend to archive both app updates & combo OS X updates so that if I need to I can freeze an install to keep something working. Thankfully it's not been a big issue to duplicate the previous Logic version (since the updaters seemed to stop doing that again) and just hold off of the major dot updates as Chris also recommends. But I'm hopefully prepared for something to break or 'end' nonetheless.

Also I agree about emagic, it was a bit of a kick in the stomach for me as well. Since I had used Nuendo since 1.3 I wasn't super eager for Cubase to replace Logic but really had no other choice for a few years (though I put up with it long enough for them to fix the cpu load balancing issues with VSTi's on multi-cpu platforms that started with the addition of VSTi's in 1.5.3 of Nuendo). Even though I missed a version or two of Logic I am not at all sad that I missed the later (crap) G4's, the (hot) G5's and the Core1 era machines.

And once again, kudos for keeping AD stuff as current as you guys can. Having seen plenty of smaller OS X devs give up against the 'evolution' of the platform and am generally happy to see not everyone has.

**analogcre8or** (2011-07-15):

@ CR. Good advice indeed. I was with them at the very beginning, in more ways than one, building my musical/professional life to this day basically around one team's programming, but I went C64>Atari ST>Mac instead... After a quarter of a century I am, cautiously, making myself more aware of other options, and more familiar with my copy of Live... just in case. People have been known to just go ... sailing :-)!