The Room In The Elephant...
From the original Analog Industries archive. Some links and images from that era no longer resolve.
Audio Damage is a month in to its 9th year of operation, and throughout the history of the company, there are some constants. I regularly receive letters that essentially say “your products look great, but no demo = no purchase. Sorry.” These have come about once a week, pretty regularly, since the company’s inception. There is no question in my mind that we lose sales because of our No Demo policy. However, mathematically speaking, we’d also lose sales by having demos. (The entire point of a demo to see if you like it; having a demo doesn’t automatically mean having a purchase from the person that downloaded the demo.)
There are a lot of forum posts from various points of view about our policy, mostly on KvR but elsewhere as well. I look back with amusement at posts on OSX Audio and KvR from c. 2003 or so where people often would say “there’s no way this company will stay in business without demos.” Those don’t occur any more, of course. There were many discussions about why we do this, with most people deciding it was an anti-piracy tactic, which it is not. Whether or not we have demos has had zero effect on piracy, and we never thought it would.
Which brings me to the real point of this post. The following letter, which I quote verbatim, leaving out only the author’s name, has become increasingly common in the last couple years; just this weekend I received three letters that were variations on this theme. This one came this morning:
_Hey guys,
I’m a huge fan of your plugins and actually got to check em out a pirated version of your software (I am a student so please excuse the lengths I go to to try out what’s good before buying). Anyways, I really love your stuff and was wondering if I could maybe make my own bundle with you guys? I know it’s sort of a long shot but I’m on a student budget and I’m trying to go by any means to get legitimate software, so I figure it wouldn’t hurt to ask. I was wondering if I could get Kombinat Dva, Discord 3, Eos, and Dubstation. I’ve only tried Dubstation and Kombinat but the others seem amazing as well. Please let me know if there is any way something can be arranged. If not, I very well understand. Thank you so much for your time. Take care._
Now, using cracked software is like masturbation. 90% of the people do it, and the other 10% lie about it. I’m fully aware of this. We’ve always just accepted it as a fact of nature. I frequently have to do support with people that have been using a cracked older version of a plug (e.g. BigSeq 1, Discord 1.5, the original Kombinat) and then they actually buy a current version and discover their presets don’t work, or they’re Logic users and the AU cache chokes on the new version. But this sort of letter is a New Thing, and I’m never sure how to respond.
On the one hand, I’ll usually give people deals if they’re reasonable. And I always want to turn pirate customers in to paying customers. On the other, well, you know. It’s a hard pill to swallow.
Thoughts?
61 comments
That is a tough nut to crack. On one hand, credit to this guy for being honest, and you want to encourage the behavior of converting people to legitimate users. However, you don't want to create the perverse incentive for people to use cracks in order to get a deal. IIRC, the IRS occasionally has a program where if you've been cheating on your taxes you get a one time only deal to come clean and get legit. Usually it has some sort of time limit and it's a one time only all or nothing sort of thing. Maybe something similar could work here?
From my perspective, $49 for a high quality plugin is already a deal. A very reasonable deal.
It always blows me away how much effort some people expend on getting things MOAR CHEAPER. It doesn't matter WHAT the price is - they want it lower. I'm starting to wonder if it is a cultural thing. Growing up in the US, I wasn't exposed to haggling in the majority of my commercial transactions. A few items (like cars) are the domain of haggling in the US, and most other things (like groceries) are fixed price. This isn't the way it is in many parts of the world, where haggling is an expected part of most transactions.
As far as mentioning the pirated software, my guess is that for people below a certain age, this isn't seen as any sort of shame whatsoever. I'm reminded of the warnings to young folks that they should leave their risque photos off of Facebook, as they will probably be seen by prospective employers. 20 years from now, those prospective employers will be the people who grew up posting risque selfies. People will include their best pornos on their holographic resumes. THIS IS THE FUTURE.
these are the kinds of problems i'd hate having to figure out how to solve if i was a dev. i mean.. .i'd probably just give in and make a bundle so long as the person wasn't a dick about asking and was honest about motives and believable etc. just so i wouldn't have to think about it all the time.
or i'd cave and do student discounts or student bundles etc but then you'd have to require some proof and yada yada yada.
there are plenty of students who are on a serious budget.. not all of them are white upper class twits with amex cards and off campus housing. plenty of college kids do buy whoppers in bulk when they go on sale and stick them in the freezer for later.
anyway... having a policy in place would perhaps make your day to day a little easier and you'd not have to consider these situations on a case by case basis.
i think if you get emails that start "dude bro..." then obviously you know what to do.
*AD plugs are very affordable though and prices seem down right compassionate towards just about every market out there.
"the IRS occasionally" - reads "if you have a lawyer" ;)
I managed to spend around $50 a month on CDs when I was a "starving student." I also managed to make some music without having every effect unit I could ever want (back when that would have cost 20x as much as it does today.) So I guess I'm with Phoboy here, $49 is crazy cheap for the quality you get now. Your "Everything Bundle" costs less than an Alesis Quadraverb did in 1993.
I've decided that I can't comment with any objectivity on this matter, other than to say that when we started AD, we deliberately chose to give everything a low price so that our stuff was generally affordable and we wouldn't have to deal with marketing tactics like sales, bundles, etc. Nine years later, our stuff is still generally affordable and we _are_ doing sales, bundles, etc.
What mostly comes to mind is this: if you think being a student is expensive, wait 'til you try being an adult.
--Adam
it's weird because when I was a student, I had more money than I do now--my living space was covered, my meals were covered and I could get a job and get a bunch of money that I didn't need to spend on bills.
if you ask me, it makes more sense to have discounts for people in their mid/late 20s. Our debt-to-income ratios are scary!
However, 50 bucks isn't bad, considering what you are getting imo
"Introducing the Audio Damage Build-Your-Own-Bundle, pick any three, save 20%, pick any four, save 25%"
I'm sure it's not that simple, what with server-side gubbins and installers, etc, but it's a solution that side-steps the whole issue, leaves room for a that's-as-discount-as-we-can-get policy.
I've tried to write a response on the piracy stuff explicitly, deleted it several times. It's an impossible topic. I was reading a blog post about music piracy earlier today, someone in the comments beat his drum in support of taking every music pirate to court. There's a righteous principle there I'm sure, but that doesn't change the fact that the drum-beater came across as an asshole in love with their asshole ways.
Students won't be students forever. Perhaps just having a 'student discount' program might not be a bad idea (other vendors do it). Turning a pirate into a paying customer can't be a bad thing, and doing a solid favor for someone now may pay dividends later...but I do think having a consistent policy in place for handling this will do you better than going ad-hoc and case by case. Maybe requiring to see a copy of a Student ID wouldn't be a bad idea.
Also, just FYI, I can honestly say I don't pirate software...anymore. I did a lot of it when I was young and broke, but I feel if I can't pay for it I don't use it. It's just not fair considering the hard work and creativity that goes into building software.
p.s. I would start every reply e-mail with a "Thank you for reporting yourself to me. Ill be forwarding your e-mail to the Intellectual Property Protection Unit at the FBI. They will contact you shortly. JUST KIDDING!"
IMO, the app store model of making extremely cheap one trick pony toys that are entertaining for about 15 minutes until they are forgotten is absolutely toxic, and is going to have a much longer lasting negative effect on software sales than any level of piracy.
I have little (printable) to say about this except to say that
(a) There is plenty of reasonable free stuff out there, especially synths; and
(b) AD stuff is great; very good value and associated with a good business model (which not everyone likes)
But it is bad that you guys' livelihoods depend on something so tenuous.
Steven Massey (of Massey Plugins - PT only, so perhaps unknown to many here), answers this exact thing on his FAQ:
------------------------------------------
Q: Is there a discounted bundle price for all the plugins? Or, student discounts?
No, sorry.
Q: Why not?
I've kept the prices discounted from the beginning. For example, the price of the L2007 is a mere $89. Other equivalent limiters of similar sonic caliber can be over $500. More importantly, running a bundle upgrade and student discount system doesn't "come for free." It would require a real investment of my limited time and resources. As a small operation, I try to make operating decisions that positively impact all the patrons of Massey plug-ins. Therefore, I think my effort is better spent fixing bugs, adding features, developing upgrades and providing support. Since I'm not burning away time managing superfluous systems and formulating marketing gimmicks, I can provide more value to everyone.
------------------------------------------
That covers it quite well, methinks.
Also, I'm with boobs.
I don't really think your products are priced at a level where one really should need discounts... But I kind of think if there isn't an "across the board" discount (which everyone is publicly able to participate in) then who is this chump in thinking he can negotiate one? This isn't Craiglist, he's trying to bargain with your livelihood. And you know, if you gave this guy a discount, he would sing about it on the internet...either pissing off existing customers or bringing forth more "gimme gimme" types...not that publicity is bad but no one wants to be known as the cheap guy without any stones. Reminds me of an art teacher I had, or rather, a classmate. I don't remember what the project was, but some snobby girl inquired why she did not receive an A+ on her project, and she was concerned about her GPA not being perfect or whatever....sorry its kind of a fuzzy memory. He went on some tangent about art and fascism and how you can't possibly measure art objectively with numbers...then gave everyone an A+ across the board because he was not qualified to make any measurement lesser on it...
Anyway what I mean is, maybe make a small incentive discount to "build your own bundle" (something automatic in your shopping cart??) for everyone to do isn't such a bad idea, but I think your products are priced too damn reasonable for students to complain.
The old "I'll pay for it when I make money off my music, until then I will pirate" line bothers me as much (maybe more) than the act of piracy. Without the hobbyist the musical instrument/software/gearlust industry as we know it would seek to exist. I'm sure AD has many professionals among their customers, but I'm also sure that bedroom amateurs make up the vast majority. Also, piracy is theft. It is convenient theft without repercussions for the thief, but it is theft. If you are gonna steal shit at least own up to it.
I don't know what to tell you regarding that email. Tell him to lay off the Starbucks and weed for a while and maybe he'd be able to afford plug-ins. I did find this interesting though...
"I frequently have to do support with people that have been using a cracked older version of a plug (e.g. BigSeq 1, Discord 1.5, the original Kombinat) and then they actually buy a current version and discover their presets don't work"
I've never had a cracked version of Discord and have never been able to get the presets to work. Even after a fresh OS install on a brand new, freshly formatted hard drive (upgraded to an SSD recently) I'm still not able to get the Discord presets to work. At least I now know why I've never received any responses to the emails I've sent to AD support. I've most likely been written off as a pirate.
It's actually a common problem with Discord3 lately, and I don't know why it happens. We've looked in to it and can't find the cause. The solution is to just manually put the AU presets in. They're actually there, in the AU itself, and you can find 'em by right-clicking on the AU, selecting "show package contents," and browsing to the Resources folder. Just copy them, and paste them in the Discord3 folder in /Library/Audio/Plug-ins/Presets.
Logic is a strange and puzzling DAW. I'll say that much.
-CR
iWould say f students getting plug-ins for free. They can pay for fancy phone bills to post pictures of their cats taking a dump in facebook, they can pay for a plug-in. Besides if they can afford a computer they can afford a plug-in. Most likely the DAW they are using is cracked anyways.
I think AD's pricing is very reasonable. The only thing I wish software devs offered is an exchange program, not the one month money back kind but more like hardware where if after a few months you find you don't use the plug much you can trade a percentage value for the license (say 1/3) against an alternative plugin of your choice from the available range.
I'm with boobs.
...also, every DAW now comes with plugins decent enough to make a record. He should save up and buy AD plugs at their very reasonable regular price like the rest of us if he can't live without them. As Louis C.K. says "everything is amazing and nobody is happy".
I remember being in college in not having a solid income stream. Any jobs I worked were basically to cover my food expenses, and I had burned through any savings I was able to scrounge together working through high school by the end of freshman year.
At the time (fall of '99, spring of 2000), I was using cracked everything (not that there wasn't a whole lot available). As time went on, becoming an adult got more expensive, but it also started bringing in some disposable income. I'm now at the point where I can buy the plugins, or whatever I want, and don't bother with cracks. Have been for years.
My point? Say no to the kid if you want. Or offer him a bundle. But let's keep in mind that he could be using cracks without ever even offering to buy plugins. So my advice would be this: ignore the more vitriolic portions of this thread. He appears to be a future customer, you should end up treating him as one.
Expectations have changed a lot over the years too. I guess I'm of a similar generation to CR & AS (born late 60s) and when I first started scraping gear together, it was whatever I could afford (zoom & boss fx, cassette four track, squier guitar etc etc). Thought if I ever got good at this stuff it would be great to upgrade or record in a decent studio but had no expectation that I should be using pro gear from the word go. Now you can buy, say, a darn good 'verb for $49, what I would have payed for a shitty guitar pedal way back then).
Guess what I'm saying is younger generations have nothing to value current gear against, you say it's $49, they'll haggle lower not realising what a deal they're getting anyway.
Whatever, you could always point him to the KVR marketplace... (not funny, I know ;))
This is aside from the main point --- and I don't care if anyone believes me, people usually don't --- but I have never used cracked software in my life. In fact, never downloaded anything free that wasn't offered for free and that includes music. All my media and media-making tools are paid for or if I got them free, it's because they were offered to me free.
I recognize I'm anomalous in this landscape, but just wanted to say that I do exist.
- c
Also: your stuff is crazy cheap. Say no.
Explain to him that you're an independent developer, you're not wealthy and you need health insurance.
Reverse the sob story.
- c
Cracks are for kids. Seriously.
When I was self-/unemployed and an aspiring pro musician, I had some cracked stuff I used. I felt bad about it. I grew up with gear and dreamed of having enough cash to buy a compressor or a reverb unit or a synth.
For a while, I had nearly every piece of software I thought I wanted. I spent more time installing it than actually using it. I knew it was wrong and I felt bad about it. Even before I had a real job I looked at all that stuff one day and said "this is ridiculous", and I uninstalled all of it. Went "legit" and never looked back.
Software is dirt cheap - you can now buy a software version of anything for $100 or so, and then instantiate as many as you need.
There's no excuse for people pirating software, especially music software. And ESPECIALLY Audio Damage stuff, which is high quality, simple, boutique, well-supported, and of tremendous value for its price.
I suspect most of these WaReZ kids don't even do anything except preset-surf across a ton of things anyhow.
I say run your biz how you want. Piracy exists. Demos won't change any of that.
@Chad: Someone asked me a couple months ago what health insurance we had. I said "oh, we have the Hope plan. It's really excellent." And he goes "what's the Hope plan?" And I say "Hope I don't get sick."
If you work for a company that has a health plan, and the above statement seems ludicrous to you (hey, I know Chris isn't poor!) then have a gander at this, which is fairly typical for a married couple of our age with no prior health problems:
http://www.analogindustries.com/images/blog/hope_plan.png
Simply put, I can have a car, or I can have health insurance.
-CR
Or you could just be a bit more proactive and release a pre-emptive 'cracked' version that only plays pirate related presets... parrots squawking, people saying 'bilge rat' and the like
Those plan details make me angry.
Shit, I wish I could get that health plan. Try; two adults that have rarely ever seen a doctor in their lives, $1000 a month, $5000 deductible.
Yeah, aren't these health care exchanges supposed to be set up at some point?
I got that screenshot from the national exchange, HealthCare.gov.
-CR
Those plan details now make me sad. A few more stages of loss/grief and I'll have some understanding of what it means to be an American.
I'm now thinking that these turn-piracy-into-discount emails should get replies that start with "Son, you see, it's like this..."
Just for fun, all you US readers, just go to that healthcare.gov site and put in your details (doesn't take any personal contact info to do it) and see what it returns for quotes.
In the past, I fall in the 90% of having used cracks and whatnot, and quickly learnt that they usually ended up being nothing but trouble in the long run. On both moral and pragmatic grounds.
I think most kids today get into the digital hoarding thing. With drive space being cheap as it is, most people have more downloaded music then they could ever even listen to in a reasonable lifetime. Just to have it.
Same thing with plugins and whatnot. What I hate is that sometimes I have been "forced" to use a krack of a legitimate piece of kit I have bought due to poor customer support, horribly implemented copy protection, requirements of iloks etc... (see Arturia-screw them, pretty much everything I have bought from them fails at one point or another to operate properly).
I also think with the quality of "built in" plugins in daws increasing, I find myself using less and less stuff outside the provence of the software itself, except for more esoteric stuff. I work with a lot of other people, and them not having a certain compressor or eq or something, well sometimes it's just easier to use the stock one and live with whatever perceived shortcomings they may or may not have. But using less, I find it is nicer to learn a few things well, rather then having every whizz bang vst in the book and overwhelmed with options..... Again, things were easier when I was stuck with just a 2 channel digidesign setup, a samplecell card (with no filters!), a zoom 9030, and a 1 gigabyte(! who would ever need that much storage !) hard drive, and found a way to make the 100 different kicks and snares I had work as opposed to sifting through the noise of today. But I'm an old man.
health insurance... you still have to submit a lengthy application w/the insurance company with your medical history etc. and they can still turn you down and direct you to the branch of state gov't that deals w/people who get turned down by commercial providers.
at least this is what happened to me last month.
edit: i have pre-existing conditions so i'm doubly fuckt
Those rates are insane. Wonder why your country is so dead set against an affordable socialized system like we have in Canada. Aside from the fact that the voting public seems to be brainwashed by the health insurance industry I guess.
Through my work I get extended medical at an extra $40 a month on top of the $60 I pay to the government. Not much when you consider that I can claim $1000 a year in dental work, $200 for glasses and an extra $800 in prescriptions, all without a deductible.
I'm a fan of AD but it took me a while to get my mind around the whole AD approach. However, not everyone gets AD.
I think AD would be making more money if:
1. There were demos.
2. Prices were slightly higher so there would be headroom to discount for occasional sales and bundles. The whole sale thing seems dumb but it works. Lot of people make impulse purchases just because something is on sale for a limited time.
3. Chris or Adam schmoozed on KVR. The companies that do this well acquire "fanbois" who will pretty much buy anything they make.
I realize #3 will happen when hell freezes over but I'm just pointing out things that may be limiting potential sales.
I would thank the person for their inquiry, decline to offer a discount, and say you look forward to when they have the financial means to support Audio Damage as a paying customer.
Done.
RE: Supporting pirated copies, hopefully all your support responses start with "Have you downloaded and tried the latest version from you AD account? What's your account login so I can ensure the latest version is showing up in your downloads section?"
@MikeF RE: #3. While these days I only go to KvR a few times a year, following a shared link or google search, I think you're vastly over-estimating the reach of the site with the general audio nerd population. Once I stepped away I realized that it mostly consists of a relatively small handful of enthusiasts who think they have have more sway than they do in the larger scheme of things and probably spent more time collecting software than using it.
Moreover, some of the dev's that log a lot of time on the site sort of engender this inflated, insular world view. They probably have a pretty skewed view of their potential user base.
Did you know that even on popular sites, only something like 20% of readers actually comment. That loud, vocal group create an impression that they represent a huge majority, when the truth is its a pretty small tribe with a specific agenda.
- puffer @digitallofi
It's a shame you can't bundle up a knuckle sandwich in an email.
@puffer: I am not saying KVR is super important but I do spend a lot of time there and see how what goes on and who buys what. I think if an AD representative spent time there building relationships and occasionally doing promotions, they could be selling more plugins. Although it's impossible to say how many.
In my career in the tech industry (not music tech), I have missed a lot of opportunities because of my "fuck you" attitude. I am slowly changing and making corrections but it's not easy. In fact, it's somewhat painful.
I think AD has a similar attitude which I don't mind but probably hurts sales to a certain extent. I am mentioning it only because Chris was asking for thoughts on sales, etc.
Part of the appeal of AD.. imho (or maybe its just for me) .. is the fuk you attitude.
In sound, business attitude, worldview, even the blogs.
Since when is honesty attitude? I much prefer straight talk to the usual marketing wank.
I have been a loyal AD customer for around five years now. I've bought all but one plugin since then. I have a wife and a child and the household income is around $20,000 a year. I have a car. It's a hand me down 2001 Olds Alero that most of the time costs me more in duct tape and pantyhose than it's worth, but the thing is slightly more reliable than the mass transit system in Pittsburgh. I've got to get to work on time, otherwise our income drops to pretty much zero pretty damn fast. A couple of years ago my wife fell on the sidewalk and shattered her knee. Plateau fracture of the tibia. The next day she was in surgery undergoing an open reduction internal fixation operation. I was out of work for a week dealing with the doctors and our son. She couldn't walk for a year, so I had to cut down to only two or three days a week at work. That basically halved our income that year. Then the bills for all of that shit started showing up. The first bill I got was for $17,000. So much for the HOPE plan. My wife was still in the hospital when that one hit my mailbox. In the middle of all of this, I still squeezed out the funds to buy whatever plugins Audio Damage made. I also bought my wife a decent stack of biographical graphic novels to read while she was laid up.
My music is my outlet for all kinds of emotions and drives. I love the feeling of a good day in the studio (read: the garage poshed out as I can afford to make it). I love how lost I can get coaxing out sounds from my broken Juno 106. I love the fact that I can spend hours under a pair of 7506s stringing together VSTs until I have created new sounds and textures. I think all of that is worth the occasional $49. I have little patience for anyone who thinks otherwise.
I'll put it another way. My MacBook is almost six years old. It's slow and temperamental. I have worn off the color on the nubs on the F and J keys. My MagSafe power cable has been peeled down to bare wire, then re-wrapped with electrical tape and a fair amount of hot melt. On it I have written and recorded hours of music. The EP I released a couple of months ago sold enough in the first month for me to be able to upgrade my compressor plugins. Not a ton of cash, but considering my whole marketing campaign has been two tweets and a few facebook mentions, I'm pleased. I'm not going to get rich doing this, but I've worked up to it paying for plugins. I hope to get to the point where a record will upgrade my laptop. I'm willing to wait and put in the legwork to get to that point. I've asked for no handouts, but I have been given a few things. Not because I asked, or tried to strong arm someone by threatening to not be a paying customer if they didn't give me the hookup, but because I have made friends and connections with people. That's how the industry works. That's why I'm a loyal AD customer. This blog, as well as Adam's blog, give me a personal connection to the company. I don't need a demo. I know by reading about who the people behind the company are that they are going to make product I like. There are a couple of AD plugins that I never use. They're great and well built and I probably bought them in the first week they were released, but they don't fit my workflow or my music. Whatever. Every fifty bucks I toss Chris and Adam for a plugin that I don't use much I consider payment towards what should be the full price of Dubstation which gets used on absolutely everything. AD does great work and should be paid for it. There are no excuses for pirating.
- William
Also, why didn't you stop me from rambling so much! It's like I'm getting payed by the word. That was the Yngwie Malmsteen of comments right there. Sorry about that.
- William
i thought it was pretty well said @wgparham.....
Having left the the teat of corporate America and going into business for myself I understand how important every sale is for a small business owner. AD plugins are not expensive and they perform great. A college student probably spends more than $49 on pizza in a month; if he's really broke he can hit up mom and dad for a early birthday present or piece-meal purchase. If you like a product and the company that makes them then pay for the shit so they can feed their families and keep making great products. The entitlement mentality that everything should be free or cheaper is really irksome. I choose to give my support to smaller shops like AD so they can continue to make unique products. Purchasing an effect from AD or kits from Wade's Standard Beat Company makes me feel good because I know I'm getting something that's quality.
Just to be clear, do you mean Yngwie J. Malmsteen?
Great, inspirational post @wgparham. Thankyou.
@wgparham: Dude, you are full of awesome. Thanks for sharing your story.
Meh. Maybe he was looking at your ready made bundles to save a couple bucks and didn't find a bundle that fit what he wanted so he thought it couldn't hurt to ask?
The last time that I bought plugs from you, I wanted to go with a bundle but the options didn't include the plugs that I wanted so I just bought a couple separate plugs instead. If there was a bundle that had fit the combination that I was looking for, I would have spent a little more money to get it but, since there wasn't, I opted to just buy a couple.
Maybe offer a one time 20% off discount to all first time buyers that purchase a minimum of $150 in content? That way, they get their discount and you get a minimum purchase in exchange. Or don't. I'll keep buying from you either way.
ramble on william... ramble on :)
agree with xmodz here - i keep reading and re-reading the original quote from the student, and the question i keep asking myself is 'what if the dude didn't mention the illegal versions he used?' he did mention to 'arrange something', and you do already offer bundles besides the everything bundle, so my guess is you'd be disposed to doing something if that bomb hadn't dropped before. the piracy rankles and i understand. but you're already offering bundles and companies change their policies and offer deals on that score frequently. no offense meant, just saying...
"I could get Kombinat Dva, Discord 3, Eos, and Dubstation"
I would just offer the guy 20% or so discount. That's also marketing. He probably will tell few ppl how great the guys at AD are. Some might email you too asking for discounts and you can say that it was one time deal and if you follow us in FB we have special discount promotions there.
Just because we have free health care here in Finland i will go and buy one AD plugin that i don't have yet to support your Hope plan.
I think I know why now u havent gotten back now about filterstation crashing when speeding through presets. It still happens after a fresh reformat too.
I'm in the camp loving what wgparham said.
Look, the kid's cell bill is probably $80 or more a month. I'm pulling the Old Man card and saying, "Save a few bucks, and learn the value of earning something. Then when you enjoy what you've earned, you not only feel good about it, but you've learned a lesson to apply to other things, and your life."
Just call me Mr. Rogers.
"Either my tax dollars or your rich parents are putting you through college, so fuck off with the discount."
Thanks for that nugget of wisdom, Chris. http://www.asa.org/policy/resources/stats/
You think those federal loan programs grow out back on the cottonwood tree, Dylan?
That said, it is a subject about which I know next to nothing, so I'll concede the point.
-CR
I'm with boobs, who is with wgparham.
@chris since you didn't go to college, I can understand you not being well informed on the subject of student loans. But the short bit on Wikipedia makes for interesting reading: The interest rates on student loans is set by legislation, not market rates. So federally 'subsidized' student loans interest rates are higher than you could get for e.g. a home equity loan. There's a delightful inside-the-beltway term for this program: 'negative subsidy.'
So those kids delaying their entry into the real world are, in effect, being taxed to your benefit. SUCKERS.
PS there's a commercial student loan market that falls under the law that makes it an inescapable obligation -- bankruptcy doesn't get you out from other them -- that are offered at predatory rates. Banks are basically screwing unwary students out of their financial futures.
So I guess there's more than one reason to feel good about skipping college. All teaching is self-teaching anyway.
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