Question...
From the original Analog Industries archive. Some links and images from that era no longer resolve.
What’s a cheap-ass A/D - D/A converter with AES besides the M-Audio Flying Cow? Never mind my aversion to all things Digi, the Flying Cow has been discontinued. I could probably find one somewhere, but I’d rather just order something that’s new and, like, supported.
I know we had this conversation before, but I have a Kaoss Pad 3 showing up tomorrow, and Korg, for some bizarre reason, seems to lack the intrinsic understanding that it’s, like, 2006 or something and it’s easy to throw a pair of SPDIF jacks on any random piece of gear. This thing has RCA jacks. (Really?) So I need to get a converter just for it, because my system isn’t hacked together with some whack-ass DJ mixer. I’m not going to bother using an Apogee for something that is just going to do another conversion process with A/D/A of a _much_ lower spec, so I just want to throw a cheap-ass converter on there.
I _suppose_ I could live with SPDIF->RCA->SPDIF (in for a penny, in for a pound, right?) just to use the damned thing. But I’d prefer AES, so I don’t have to go through the drama of converting the native AES of my system with some silly adaptor. Oh, wait… That’s what I’ll be doing no matter what.
34 comments
The words "cheap" and "AES/EBU" don't go together.
RME ADI2 fits you description, but you'll need to convert the unbalanced AES (aka S/PDIF) to an XLR.
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/adi/adi2.htm
Hosa makes a SPDIF/AES converter for $79. Or, you know, you could get a computer interface with some A/Ds on it. It's not like they're hard to find, and might come in handy. ;)
Go to fullcompass.com or bswusa.com and search for "a/d converter" and see if you find anything. Sometimes the broadcast and post guys have problems solvers like this, although they're often expensive.
Yeah, I need to get an Aurora 8 or Rosetta 800 (preferably the latter.) Adam was supposed to get tired of his and sell it to me at a steep discount, but that event hasn't occurred, so I suppose I need to just man up and buy the damned thing.
-CR
you could scour the interwebs for a used DAT machine. they go cheap these days. but the idea of that... ugh.
enjoy the kp3. it has some serious stuff, once you shut the pad animations off.
My ignorance may be showing through here, and this isn't really in the "cheap" category, but perhaps an RME Fireface 400 or multiface II. Way overkill for merely hooking up a Kaos pad, but the quality is unassailable.
Actually, as I'm looking at it, RME has a bunch of stuff that might fit the bill:
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/adi/adi2.htm -Here's a 2 channel converter, which is going for about $700.
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/hdsp/hdsprpm.htm -Or this might be more what you're looking for, and it's about $100 cheaper.
I have a fireface 400 on the way right now and I'm so excited to dump my digital mixer and Audiophile 2496.
presonus firebox.
i'll show my ignorance too by suggesting an alesis ai3...i got one for $200 on ebay and its the best money i've spent on anything that doesn't actually create and/or manipulate sound. but i'd love to be enlightened as to why this isn't a good solution? i bought it specifically for all the gear that just doesn't seem to warrant expensive conversion (electribes, anyone?)...so if i'm doing something wrong i'd love to know. fwiw, black lion does a mod of this thing...they claim the converters are just fine but that something in the analog circuitry is sub par.
RME ADI-2 : Costs twice as much as the Kaoss Pad, so we're looking at over a thousand dollars to get a mediocre insert effect. I could think of a lot better ways to spend that money, mainly on a used PCM91.
Fireface, Multiface, Firebox, any other permutations of the words "fire," "face," and "box": These are audio interfaces. I want a convertor, and a convertor only. There's absolutely no way I'm gonna sully my pristine, powerful, tuned PC with its Lynx AES16/Apogee audio with some low-end prosumer interface. No audio shall ever pass through the Firewire ports on my computer. I'm a fan of stability and low latency, two things precluded by Firewire interfaces. (My round trip latency is currently 2.20 ms.)
Alesis AI3: This is an audio -> lightpipe interface. Doesn't even have SPDIF, let alone AES.
As I said, I think I'm gonna have to just get another Rosetta. This is painful, but it needs to be done.
-CR
I was looking at the outputs on the Kaos Pad 3 just to make sure the SPDIF wasn't being mistaken for RCA jacks (I know, I know, CR wouldn't make a mistake like that, but what the heck I thought I would check anyway :) )... but yeah, it only has RCA and 1/4" stereo. The USB connector doesn't even work as a digital sound source.
So my question is, if you had to use one or the other, which is better? I always prefer 1/4" to RCA, because 1/4" is big, and chunky, and has a nice sturdy feel to them when you plug them into gear. But I can't say I can really hear much of a difference between them.
CR, can you post a review of the KP3 when you get it? I was thinking of getting one for live twiddling, but I am also worried it might just be a distraction.
I prefer 1/4" just because it isn't so lame. RCA is just lame, and SPDIF is lame by association. Audio connections should be TRS balanced 1/4" or XLR, whether they're analog or digital.
(Of course, this doesn't count for instruments, which are what they are. Only signal processors and the like.)
In any case, the KP3 is _exactly_ the sort of thing I can be really harsh on, so don't expect a love-fest or anything, but yeah, I'll put up a review.
-CR
You know you'll get another synth or FX box eventually. Wasn't there a Moog whispering your name not too long ago?
i honestly don't think you should bother with expensive conversion...if even just for the latency within the kaoss pad itself (unless they've fixed this in the new version?). you'll be spending a bunch of money not to fix a problem, just to make it "less bad". i love cheap studio gear, but my original kaoss pad has all the other cheap stuff beat in regards to noise, latency, and overall non-pro crapness...its sort of beyond help when it comes to making it work/sound good next to all the other stuff.
help us out with some more info on your set up...it sounds like your entire studio runs on some pci multi-spdif i/o? can't you patch the kaoss pad in where some other cheap analog gear (you must have some?) is already being converted? you don't want a light pipe option and firewire is too latency prone for your needs but it seems weird that you don't have the ability to patch in analog gear at will. also, if you're already willing to spend money on good conversion, you might also consider mac so you can use os x's aggregate device feature...whatever you use as your main interface now, you might be able to use two (or more) at once.
and re: no spdif on the kaoss pad...99% of people buying the kaoss pad don't know what spdif is, and even if they do they only have 1 set of spdif i/o on their interface. is the kp3 1/4" i/o even balanced?
As I've said in this very thread, I use a Lynx AES16 with Apogee convertors. That said, I have very little analog gear. Two mic pres and an MKS-80. Everything else is AES. I'm not only willing to spend a lot of money on good conversion, I already have. I need to get _another_ Rosetta, is my point. I just wanted to use this dumb Kaoss pad in the interim, and not drop $250 for a used Flying Cow or $2500 for another Rosetta to do it, and was wondering if there was an easy solution I may have missed.
Did any of you actually read the post?
Oh, and to RexRhino, UPS just showed up. The Kaoss _only_ has RCA. There are 1/4" connectors on the front for a mic (???) and headphones, but none on the back. RCA only, if you can believe that.
-CR
yes i did. you asked for help and i (we) did the best to offer it without spending time googling and following links for a half hour so i could better familiarize myself with your setup. i have a studio that works fine for me with tons and tons of i/o for what i need...so i thought i could help based on personal experience, but obviously not. usually it is the asker of questions who is gracious, and defers judgement and provides as much info as possible so people can help as best they can. sorry to offend.
As I've mentioned before, the SEK'D ADDA 2496 S is your best bet in this particular case. http://www.dacsaudio.com/Distribution/SEKD/ADDA2496S.htm I see them go on the 'bay for around $300. Fuck, the last one went for $76 (10 days ago).
I think the first sentence of Chris's post is pretty clear, and really nothing else needs to be known about his setup to answer that question. But anyway, I'm beginning to think that we (AD) should start building and selling the thing that Chris is seeking. Notice how everyone and their idiot brother is making cheap audio interfaces these days? It's because 24-bit converter chips are cheap and easy to come by. It can't be that hard to add support logic to hook them to an AES port. Presto, a converter.
Oh, wait. We don't do hardware. Nevermind. I'm supposed to be writing the Replicant manual anyway.
--Adam
>>As I've mentioned before, the SEK'D ADDA 2496 S is your best bet in this particular case.
Yup, you right. $76 is exactly what I want to pay in this case. Okay, now to hunt one up. It seems that or the Flying Cow are the only easy solutions available. I should have hunted up the previous thread where we talked about this very subject.
And to scientist, I take your point, and sorry if I came off as a bit gruff, but welcome to AI. That's the way we do things here. Suffice to say that my system is professional, not hobbiest, because I am a professional, not a hobbiest. My blog posts and comments assume that my readers are the same, and are going to know what a Rosetta or a Lynx AES16 are without any Googling, as these are common tools in the professional audio world.
This blog is largely about three things: Audio Damage products, professional high-end kit, and making fun of weekend warriors. While those three things are often at odds with one another, just understand that I'll bounce a motherfucker as soon as not, because I don't make any money from this site, and I don't have the time to go out and pick up a Wahhh burger and a side of Cry Fries every time someone misunderstands.
hey, ya can't blame me for not reading every word in a thread...you're the one who just got a kaoss pad without even knowing it doesn't have 1/4"! just kidding. apology accepted, and please accept mine as well. if you check my first response you'll note that i pleaded ignorance in the very first sentence, which of course absolves me of any responsibility for saying anything stupid from that point on. its like the internet forum version of "i don't mean to offend, but..." and then saying something totally offensive.
looking forward to replicant, btw. at this point i'm audio damage-less as dubstation has been replaced with a genuine boss dm300.
The best thing about the Kaoss Pad (and I'm sure this has already occurred to you) is connecting it via MIDI and just using it as a controller for plug-ins. What I've found with the previous Kaoss Pad is that the quality of the effects is not the main draw but rather the control mechanism for them; using it as a MIDI controller allows you to have the hands-on fun with much better plug-ins. Controlling Dubstation with it is fun like nothing else.
Use as a controller is my primary interest in the KP3, but I admit to being easily amused by anything with blinking lights. I'd been trying to resist buying one of the things but Chris convinced me that we need them for "research". Mine got held up by the blizzard so I may not get it until next week sometime.
--Adam
I, too, pleaded ignorance, so does that grant me any slack? I wasn't meaning to suggest you replace your audio interface, but merely use the one of these boxes for it's converters, since they all operate standalone. Granted I missed mark of what you were going for by a several hundred bucks; though what you talk about in terms of gear and what I can afford seem to me miles apart.
So, yes, that's me, the dreaded wannabe. The weeknight warrior, thank you very much. Guilty. And you know, I'd wager that we makeup a pretty significant portion of your readership/user base. Do I know that you use/write about a whole 'nother realm of gear/technique than myself? Of course. But that's why I appreciate your posts, they don't address me as if it's the first time I've heard or read about any of this shit. I google search things you mention all the time. It's valuable to me to learn about high-end gear and its benefits so I can see what is important to look for while conducting my, well, hobby.
I try not to make completely clueless comments and keep the noise to a minimum (too late!). And please don't read this as being defensive. I respect the shit out of audiodamange, including the no-bullshit attitude. Just stating my case.
All the best in your search.
I was looking at picking up a KP3 for live performance but the RCA jacks just annoy the shit out of me. They'd sell so many more if they didn't cater to just the DJ crowd.
>>>Wahhh burger and a side of Cry Fries
wow, that brings back some memories. man up and get the 800. coming from the 2 i/o world, it's really the only solution (unless AD does decide to make a ?? to AES box) you'll forget you ever spent the money soon enough, cuz that's how we do.
W
Its not hard to just buy an rca to 1/4" cable. I have at least 10 of varying lengths lying around that aren't even in use, not counting the ones that I do use.
Uh oh! This is blog entry number 666!
"Chris convinced me that we need them for "research"."
Please don't tell me this is going to lead to you guys putting asinine X/Y controllers into all your GUI's. Those are easily one of the stupidest things to arise from the whole music software "revolution".
Depends on your point of view. I actually really like the X/Y controller for certain things. Freq/Res on a filter or Depth/Feedback on a delay are really nice to control from one point. Much easier than knobbing back and forth.
Personally, on the list of stupid things to arise from the music software "revolution," the X/Y controller falls fairly low on my list. I could easily name about 600 dumber things.
-CR
Yup, sorry, I like X/Y controllers also--so much so that one of the things I did while working for Cycling '74 was building the 2D slider object for Max.
--Adam
The reason i hate the X/Y controller, is that for those of us who lack a real world analog (i.e. a novation MIDI contoler or a kaoss pad) the disparity between the GUI, and the physical hardware (knobs or faders) gets to be annoying. If I wanted to use my mouse while performing, I wouldn't have spent hundreds of dollars on a MIDI controller with all sorts of knobs and faders.
If I decide to use my mouse (or have an X/Y MIDI controller), then sure it's great being able to control a combination of parameters via one interface; but the vast majority of end users don't have an X/Y controller. What they have is an 8 fader, 8 knob controller that (so far) very few developers are willing to cater to (I realize that this is changing).
I don't want to disagree with your detective work there, but the _vast_ majority of end users have no controller at all.
-CR
PM'd you.
for the price($699), the Joemeek TwinQ gives you AES/SPDIF/Optical and even word clock in. And a decent pre, very useful comp and EQ.
just a thought, i know something smaller and cheaper is what you're after. I must say the new joemeek stuff is nice, and much better made.
FWIW: 1) I've never used a physical controller in conjunction with an onscreen X/Y controller, even though I have both; 2) the majority of our customers aren't performing live.
--Adam
For DA, has anyone tried the fairly new phenomenon of DIY devices, like the Zhalou or Great March DACs? Basically the demand is entirely by the almost entirely nutty DIY audiophile market, but the components seem sound, and the price is undeniably low-enough-to-gamble-with.
http://www.ifiaudio.com/
http://pacificvalve.us/SolidStateDacs.html
I'm considering picking one up to see if it's worth the effort.
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